Ben
Affleck arrives for his Playboy Interview beaming after dropping off his kids
for their first day of school. For Affleck and wife Jennifer Garner, it is the
familiar ordeal of dodging the cameras of 20 paparazzi who have followed every
step taken by son Samuel and daughters Violet and Seraphina.
Affleck
accepts this as the price of fame and a two-star household. He had it worse
when he fell in love with Jennifer Lopez, became half of the tabloid couple
Bennifer and watched his career get damaged by the backlash and the ill-timed
flop Gigli. A nice guy caught in a media maelstrom, Affleck was left to wonder
how things had turned in a career launched after he and writing partner Matt
Damon won Oscars for their Good Will Hunting script and the two Boston kids
quickly became forces to be reckoned with.
Affleck, whose star continued to rise with Armageddon, Shakespeare in Love and
Pearl Harbor, never denied playing a part in his undoing by, among other
things, appearing in Lopez's music video to rub suntan lotion on her iconic
bottom on a yacht. After they split, and with his career faltering, Affleck
became determined to rebuild and prove his Good Will Hunting Oscar wasn't a
fluke.
He scripted his second
act himself, first by co-writing and directing the dark mystery Gone Baby Gone,
based on the Dennis Lehane novel. A smaller film, it was an auspicious debut
and won favor with critics. The next project on his road to redemption was The
Town, another gritty Boston drama, which he directed, co-wrote and starred in.
It too impressed critics. But everything came full circle with Argo. With
Affleck as producer, director and star, the film won the Oscar for best picture
last February. The tabloid follies and the failed movies faded into memory.
David Fincher, who directed The Social Network, cast him to play the
murder-suspect husband in the upcoming Gone Girl. His comeback was complete.
But then Affleck put himself in the maelstrom
again. Surprising everyone, he signed on to play the caped crusader in Batman vs.
Superman. It is a role that nearly killed George Clooney's career, and the
reaction in the press and on the internet was intense and unfavorable, with
many asking if Affleck had just undermined all the career gains he'd carefully
made.
Born
to a schoolteacher mom and a father whose theater aspirations were undone by
the bottle and who tended bar, took bets as a bookie and mopped up as a janitor
at Harvard, Affleck caught the acting bug early. Just eight when he met the
10-year-old Damon, the two scored bit parts as kids before Affleck found his
footing in indies such as Dazed and Confused and Chasing Amy. Then Good Will
Hunting changed everything.
Playboy sent Michael Fleming, who last interviewed Quentin
Tarantino, to catch up with Affleck. Reports Fleming: "We met right after his
Batman announcement elicited hostility he hadn't seen since the Bennifer days.
A more mature Affleck doesn't care. After his career overhaul, who's to doubt
him when he says, 'Trust me, I know what I'm doing'?"
PLAYBOY: When Warner Bros. named you Batman,
the internet exploded with hostility. After climbing back from career adversity
to win the best picture Oscar for Argo,
was your initial reaction more "Not again" or "Screw you"?
AFFLECK: It wasn't either, really. I expected that
reaction. Warner Bros. told me, "You should know what you're getting into."
They showed me the reactions to other folks who had been cast in these roles.
They said this is how it tends to play out initially.
PLAYBOY: What convinced you?
AFFLECK: When they asked if I would be
Batman, I told them I didn't see myself in the role and I was going to have to
beg off. They said I'd fit well into how they were going to approach the
character and asked me to look at what the writer-director, Zack Snyder, was
doing. The stuff was incredible.
PLAYBOY: Why?
AFFLECK: It was a unique take on Batman that was
still consistent with the mythology. It made me excited. All of a sudden I had
a reading of the character. When people see it, it will make more sense than it
does now or even than it did to me initially.
PLAYBOY: How will your Batman differ from
the others, particularly the one played by Christian Bale?
AFFLECK: I don't want to give away too much,
but the idea for the new Batman is to redefine him in a way that doesn't
compete with the Bale and Chris Nolan Batman but still exists within the Batman
canon. It will be an older and wiser version, particularly as he relates to
Henry Cavill's Superman character.
PLAYBOY: How much did the hostile fan
reaction bother you?
AFFLECK: I understand I'm at a disadvantage
with the internet. If I thought the result would be another Daredevil, I'd be out there picketing myself.
[laughs] Why would I make the movie if I
didn't think it was going to be good and that I could be good in it?
PLAYBOY: How would you have handled this a
decade ago, when things weren't going so well?
AFFLECK: I probably would have been more
sensitive. I had less perspective than I do now. I've learned it doesn't matter
what people think before a movie comes out; what matters is what people think
when they see the movie. There's a lot of noise in the world, and the internet
magnifies that energy. My focus is on the actual execution of the movie. Would
I have had that perspective 10 years ago? I don't know. The world was different
then. It seems odd to me to criticize casting if you haven't read the script
and don't know the tone or the take. But the casting of high-profile projects
seems to generate negative attention; it's fun to give your thumbs-up or
thumbs-down. I've had the luxury recently of doing Argo,The Town and
The Company Men, films that didn't have a high
profile. You have the luxury of waiting until the movie is released before
being judged. I've learned to think, I may succeed or fail, but I'm going to do
so on the merit of my own instincts. It's a great business in that way. You do
a movie that's successful, you get a little victory lap, and then you start at
the beginning; you have to prove yourself all over again. I like that because
it motivates you to work harder. I was thrilled with the reception Argo got. It was one of the great
professional experiences of my life. I'm thrilled I'm working with David
Fincher in Gone
Girl and that I'll
direct Live by
Night, this big,
sweeping gangster-epic morality story.
PLAYBOY: You turned around a cold streak
playing George Reeves in Hollywoodland, a film about how his acting career
was destroyed after he was typecast as Superman. Did you learn any lessons to
prepare you to play another caped icon?
AFFLECK: When George Reeves was Super-man
you had three TV channels, and that show was iconic. Now there are so many more
options. You see actors doing everything from YouTube shorts to big-budget
movies. Also, television shows hold you hostage for long periods. My wife was
on a show for five years. It's the same with Jon Hamm and Mad Men. It's conceivable you could become
hostage to one role. In movies? Look at Robert Downey Jr. He's able to be
brilliant in Iron
Man and The Avengers, but he can also go do Sherlock Holmes.
PLAYBOY: George
Clooney kept a photo of himself as Batman on his office wall as a reminder of
what can happen when you take a role for money and fame. If you had such a
photo in your office, which movie would you go with?
AFFLECK: I'd
probably have two or three. [laughs] It'd be tough to choose. The only movie
I actually regret is Daredevil. It just kills me. I love that story, that
character, and the fact that it got fucked up the way it did stays with me.
Maybe that's part of the motivation to do Batman.
PLAYBOY: Describe what holding that Oscar
statue meant to you when Argo won for best picture.
AFFLECK: There had been plenty of moments
when I didn't know where I was going to end up. I had been kicked around some
and maybe left for dead. I'm not a great believer in awards and the idea that
some movie is best, because it's subjective. But standing there at the Academy
Awards eased some of the pain and frustration I'd been carrying. I loved movies
and felt I knew how to make good ones and had something to offer, but there was
a time when I wasn't sure I would be invited to try anymore.
PLAYBOY: Contrast that with the night you
and your best friend, Matt Damon, won Oscars for best original screenplay for Good Will Hunting.
AFFLECK: The girlfriend I was with at the
time was working out of town.
PLAYBOY: Gwyneth Paltrow?
AFFLECK: Yeah, Gwyneth. Matt and I just thought, Let's
take our moms. We knew they'd want to go. We go down the red carpet and see all
these journalists from TV. We're starstruck. Holy shit, is that Roger Ebert? I
see Dustin Hoffman and he says, "You know, I did theater with your father." My
father is a great guy, but he drank a lot during my childhood, and when he said
he knew Dustin Hoffman, I thought he was bullshitting. And there I am at the
Oscars and Hoffman brings it up. "I knew your father." So now I'm reevaluating
my whole relationship with my father as we're walking inside. Every star you
could ever imagine—there's Jack Nicholson. It was Titanic's year, and
there's James Cameron. We sat down, close to the front of the stage. Billy
Crystal comes out, starts this song, and it's "Matt and Ben, Ben and Matt." It
was like walking through the fourth wall of your television into a weird dream,
one where I'm at the Oscars and Billy Crystal is singing to me and…never mind.
Then Robin Williams wins and that's exciting. The screenplay award isn't until
halfway through the ceremony, so we've got time. I remember turning to James
Cameron. I had never seen him before and don't think I've spoken to him since,
but I'm overly relaxed and caught up. I go, "Hey, how's it going, Jim?" I remember
he kind of looked at me. I say, "Don't you think it would be cool if you knew
how many votes each movie got?" He looks at me like, What the fuck is this kid
talking about? Why is this kid talking to me?
PLAYBOY: Like he was going to call for security?
AFFLECK: And why is he talking about the
vote? I sat down. I'm thinking, Shit, I just made an idiot out of myself with
James Cameron. I'll never be in one of his movies. Our category came up, and
Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau presented it. Maybe the producer figured they're
a famous screen duo and if these guys win that will be nice symmetry. But we'd
lost the Writers Guild award to Jim Brooks for As Good As It Gets, and people think if you lose that
you'll lose the Oscar. And then they read off our names. I'll never forget the
first thought I had—that I hadn't given one second of thought to what I might
say. You are an idiot. You come to the Academy Awards and didn't prepare
anything, not even secretly in your mind.
PLAYBOY: You spoke first?
AFFLECK: Matt said, "Go ahead, talk first."
Only later did I realize his show of graciousness was designed to give him a
minute to prepare what he was going to say. I mumbled a bunch of stupid things.
I thanked Boston twice. Probably once would have been enough. We'd won the
Golden Globe, but I think the only other
thing I'd ever won was some Little League trophies when I was 12. I look back
on the whole thing ruefully. I had no perspective. I thanked Cuba
Gooding Jr.—by now I was just saying stuff. We high-fived everybody. I
hugged Denzel Washington as we were coming offstage and he was going on. Why
did I hug Denzel Washington? Maybe he didn't want to be hugged by me, a
stranger. I felt like such an idiot afterward, but I have to say, we had a lot
of fun that night.
PLAYBOY: Argo, Zero Dark Thirty and Lincoln were fact-based Oscar nominees that
weathered controversies over their historical accuracy. Zero Dark Thirty was sunk when three U.S. senators
challenged scenes that indicated waterboarding had yielded info that led to Bin
Laden. Argo got heat for giving too much credit
to the CIA's Tony Mendez and not enough to the Canadian ambassador Ken Taylor,
who hid the Americans. Jimmy Carter said it wasn't an accurate depiction, and
Taylor said some negative stuff. Reportedly your film was censured by the New
Zealand parliament over its role in the movie, or lack of one.
AFFLECK: [Laughs]
I didn't know. Does that mean I'll be arrested if I go to New Zealand? I can't
be in any of the Lord
of the Rings
movies?
PLAYBOY: How were you able to navigate those
potential land mines better than those other films did?
AFFLECK: I don't think we did any better
than anybody else. Fact-based stuff leaves you exposed to criticism, and it's
difficult in a world where campaigning has metastasized into taking shots at
the other movies. People definitely took shots at Zero Dark Thirty, Lincoln
and particularly at us. Ken Taylor felt he played a greater role in the rescue
of the six than we portrayed in the film. He wanted a bigger part, but we
explained the movie wasn't about him; it was about Tony. They'd already made a
movie about Ken. We liked all the stuff about Tony that wasn't known until it
was declassified. The issue over historical fidelity is like the Batman thing,
where people are able to vent criticism instantaneously, and small issues can
catch fire and become contagious. Even with Good Will Hunting there was a rumor that Ted Tally really wrote the script and
then that William Goldman had written it. It's the same as negative campaigning
in politics. There are people who want to celebrate their movies, and others,
whose faces you never see and names you never read, who push this other stuff.
Competition brings out the best and worst in us.
PLAYBOY: You're a decade removed from Gigli, when focus on your romantic
relationship with Jennifer Lopez hurt your career. Back then, who helped you
figure out how to climb out of the hole?
AFFLECK: That hole was a series of movies that
didn't work and one in particular that was widely mocked because it had a funny
name and overlapped with the tabloid situation. It became a perfect storm. Then
Paycheck was mediocre, Surviving
Christmas was bad, and I sunk into a morass. I thought, Okay, I want to get out
of this. My wife was definitely around then. Getting to know her, falling in
love with her and being connected with her gave me a foundation to reach out
and say, Okay, I'm going to do Hollywoodland; I'm going to
direct Gone Baby Gone. Those were the steps forward I needed to put positive
stuff on the board. She is by leaps and bounds the most important person to me
in that respect. Over the past 10 years she has allowed me to have a stable
home life while accomplishing my professional goals.
PLAYBOY: She bolstered your confidence?
AFFLECK: I was frustrated. A lot of smart people
out there made choices they thought would work on some of these movies. Some of
it is luck. Everybody has movies that don't work; I just had a run of them. But
I also looked at it and said, "I didn't work hard enough. I wasn't diligent
enough. I wasn't dedicated enough." I made that realization. But once I'd made
it, the most critical thing was that she said, "If you're going to work 24
hours a day, that's cool. I'm going to be here." That allowed me to think,
Okay, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to kill myself over this next
period of time.
PLAYBOY: Your relationship with Jennifer
Garner came after a very public engagement to Jennifer Lopez. Both your
relationships were tabloid fodder.
AFFLECK: The crucible by flashbulb. It was
magazines then, and those days are more or less gone. Now it's online, but it's
the same thing. At the nadir of that I felt I was being treated worse than
Scott Peterson, who at least got the benefit of the word alleged when they
talked about him.
PLAYBOY: He's the guy who——
AFFLECK: Murdered his wife and tossed her
over the side of a boat. The point is I felt like I was at the bottom. I became
the guy people could kick around, even if they hadn't seen the movie, because they
saw other people taking shots. I thought it was unfair. But some of those
people later wrote nice things about my work. I've learned not to take it
personally.
PLAYBOY: But often it is personal.
AFFLECK: Once I saw my way out of it, I
said, You know what? I don't even care anymore. I'm going to focus on my job. I
don't give a shit. Take my picture. Write what you want to write. At the end of
the day, what you write in a gossip column doesn't matter. What matters is how
the movie works. I found out it doesn't kill you. But once I thought I had that
figured out, I started having kids. And that is when I drew the line.
PLAYBOY: What is the line?
AFFLECK: You can say what you want about me.
You can yell at me with a video camera and be TMZ. You can follow me around and
take pictures all you want. I don't care. There are a couple of guys outside
right now. Terrific. That's part of the deal. But it's wrong and disgusting to
follow children around and take their picture and sell it for money. It makes the
kids less safe. They used to take pictures of our children coming out of
preschool, and so this stalker who had threatened to kill me, my wife and our
kids showed up at the school and got arrested. I mean, there are real practical
dangers to this.
PLAYBOY: How close did he get?
AFFLECK: He was in the pack of paparazzi.
They didn't know he was a guy who was threatening to murder our family. That
makes me angry. It's a safety thing, and there's also a sanity thing. My kids
aren't celebrities. They never made that bargain. We were offered a lot of
money to sell pictures of our kids when they were born. You'll notice there
aren't any. I make no judgment about people who decide differently; a lot of
them give the money to charity. For me it was a matter of principle. I didn't
want someone to be able to come back and say I was complicit, that it wasn't a
question of principle as much as price.
PLAYBOY: You didn't want to be a hypocrite.
AFFLECK: As
their father it's my job to protect them from that stuff. I try my very best,
and sometimes I'm successful. The tragic thing is, people who see those
pictures naturally think it's sweet. They don't see the gigantic former gang
member with a huge lens standing over a four-year-old and screaming to get the
kid's attention. The kids are always looking down because they're freaked out
and scared of these people. And so they yell. Which is fine if you're Lindsay
Lohan coming out of a club, or me or any adult. With kids it's tasteless at
best. A lot of these photographs are being bought by legitimate magazines. In
the U.K. they have a good system: If you take a kid's picture, you have to blur
out the face. It protects the privacy of children, any child. I wish we would
do that here, though I don't expect it. When my wife met with California
lawmakers to get legislation passed to establish a certain distance between
paparazzi and children and also to prevent the stalking behavior on the part of
the paparazzi, she was opposed by the association of magazine and newspaper
folks. They said it would have a chilling effect on the way the news was
covered. You couldn't chill the internet coverage of celebrities if you tried.
PLAYBOY: But do you understand why the press
would worry about infringements on the First Amendment?
AFFLECK: I think the First Amendment and the
public's right to know are adequately served by photographers who are at least
100 feet away. They all have 300-millimeter lenses. I'm a photographer myself,
and I can tell you with complete confidence that you can get a fine picture. I
understand we won't be able to prevent them from taking photos of children or
get them to blur the faces, even though I think that would be preferable. But
at the very least there should be a bubble of safety. We do that at football
games: You can't just come on the field. We do that with politicians: You can't
photograph the president from any distance you want.
PLAYBOY: You took a lot of heat for making
movies with Jennifer Lopez when you were a couple. Is that why you and your
wife don't work together?
AFFLECK: Yes. Well, my wife and I made Pearl Harbor and Daredevil. With our track record, I don't know
if anyone's looking for a three-quel.
PLAYBOY: You're not Spencer Tracy and
Katharine Hepburn?
AFFLECK: Exactly. I think it doesn't work.
It's already hard to get people to suspend disbelief, and then you have married
couples in the same movie. People know about the marriage, and they're not
willing to acknowledge the couple as anything else. And marriage is boring to
people. They say, "I'm married 20 years. I love my wife, but I have that at
home." People want to see the kindling of new romance in movies. It's exciting,
but not when it's a couple they know has been together for 10 years.
PLAYBOY: You developed a political profile
campaigning for presidential candidates Al Gore, John Kerry and Barack Obama.
How did that come about?
AFFLECK: I grew up in a house with a mother who was
a teacher and a Freedom Rider—very left-wing Democrats living in a
heterogeneous working-class neighborhood. I picked up a lot of those values
there, and I brought them with me when I showed up in Hollywood. In 2000 the
Gore campaign said, "Hey, would you come do this with us?" And I did. I thought
I had a responsibility, so I campaigned for Gore. Kerry was a Boston guy, and I
felt an organic connection. And then Obama in 2008. Over time I became
disillusioned, mostly with the pernicious effect of money in politics. I
realized it was about raising $56,000 through a couple of dinners and those
bundlers who bring in $1 million or $2 million. Those people are
dedicated, and they believe in what they're doing. I believe in why many of
them are doing it. What I don't believe in is that we now have the need to do
it. And for me personally, it started to feel gross.
PLAYBOY: What part?
AFFLECK: Being used as a prop to schmooze people and try to milk the teat
of the donor for money. We'd do it sparingly. Matt and I did a thing for
Elizabeth Warren, whom we like and who won. We did a fund-raiser for Cory
Booker, whom we also like. People now know me as a Democrat, and that will
always be the case to some extent.
PLAYBOY: Does that polarize viewers?
AFFLECK: It does, and you can bifurcate your audience. When I watch a guy
I know is a big Republican, part of me thinks, I probably wouldn't like this
person if I met him, or we would have different opinions. That shit fogs the
mind when you should be paying attention and be swept into the illusion.
PLAYBOY: Still, won't that happen whether you take
positions on candidates or causes?
AFFLECK: I have misgivings about it,
counterbalanced with the larger things I care about. I don't blindly do this
stuff when it makes it harder to do my own job. And there's an awful lot of
gross money-raising going on that has made me want to pull back a bit from pure
electoral politics. So I started an organization called the Eastern Congo
Initiative after I found what I thought was the worst place in the world. Five
million people have died in 15 years. One in six kids doesn't live to see the
age of five. The Democratic Republic of the Congo has almost no functioning
state security apparatus. There are regions in this country where two out of
three women have been raped. It's an incredibly broken, needy part of the
world, and nobody was working there. I thought, Okay, I'll take that on. If I'm
going to raise money, that's what I'll raise money for. That feels like a good
way to spend my time.
PLAYBOY: Will you campaign for Hillary
Clinton in 2016?
AFFLECK: I haven't abandoned it, but I look at
working in politics again with a more jaundiced eye. Hillary does excite me, in
the same way the potent symbolism of the first African American president was
what thrilled people about Obama. It's similar with Hillary and gender
equality. The idea that 100 years after women got the right to vote, to have a
woman president would be exciting.
PLAYBOY: You've been approached to run for
office and told you could win. How seriously did you consider it?
AFFLECK: I don't give it serious thought,
because it would take me away from what I consider to be the prime of my
storytelling career. I feel more in touch with that and what I want to do than
I ever have. I wouldn't step away from that for anything. I also know people
are probably bullshitting when they tell you that you can win. It turns you
into a professional fund-raiser. I don't know what the future holds when I'm
55, 65 or 75. Right now it's about making movies I believe in, that I think
will thrill and entertain and be meaningful to audiences.
PLAYBOY: When you played a congressman in State of Play, one of the politicians you
patterned your character after was Anthony Weiner.
AFFLECK: Which goes to show you how sharp my
dramatic instincts were. I was tuned in.
PLAYBOY: How surprised were you when he was
undone the first time, came back and had his Gotham mayoral aspirations dashed
when it was exposed he was still sexting, under the moniker Carlos Danger? Are
politics more of a shark tank than Hollywood?
AFFLECK: Yeah, D.C. is a little more of a
shark tank than Hollywood because I think there's a zero-sum game at play. You
have to be out for me to get in, and the harder I hit you, the better it is for
me. In Hollywood I'm a great believer in the idea that there is room for many
people to succeed. There are a lot of long lives in this business.
PLAYBOY: Let's reminisce about a few of your
movies. Tell me what pops into your mind. Dazed and Confused?
AFFLECK: That's where I learned that an actor could contribute to a movie
beyond reading lines. Richard Linklater sent a note to all the actors that
said, "If this movie is produced as written, it'll be a massive
underachievement." We were all 19 and 20 and down in Austin, and all the actors
started to write their own ideas and their own little scenes. It demystified
the process for me in an important way. And I was in Austin with all those
young people that summer, and I was the only person who didn't have sex.
PLAYBOY: Why?
AFFLECK: You tell me. Maybe it was the hairdo.
PLAYBOY: Your character was so loathsome you
didn't get laid?
AFFLECK: You know, I can't explain these things.
PLAYBOY: Next:
I Killed My Lesbian Wife, Hung Her on a Meat Hook, and Now I Have a
Three Picture Deal
at Disney.
AFFLECK: That
was the first thing I directed. I was into directing student-film shorts. My
friend Jay Lacopo had written this untitled 12-page screenplay. I gave him a
title and he said, "You direct it." I thought, Well, I don't understand screen direction, but sure,
I'll direct it. We shot that for a couple of days and——
PLAYBOY: And you've been living it down ever since?
AFFLECK: I don't know. It's pretty good,
actually. Some of my best work.
PLAYBOY: Chasing Amy.
AFFLECK: One of the best experiences I've
had. We all lived in Kevin Smith's house. We rehearsed it like a play. We shot
on 16 millimeter. I got the chance to do the kind of acting I had never done
before. Not knowing if anyone would ever see this cheap movie was freeing. It
didn't seem like a movie, more like people running around with a video camera.
PLAYBOY: Armageddon.
AFFLECK: My introduction to big-budget
Hollywood. I went from Chasing
Amy a year before
to being in a movie that cost $150 million, or whatever it was. We shot for 100
days with cool indie actors like Billy Bob Thornton, Owen Wilson and Steve Buscemi. We had fun.
PLAYBOY: Is that the first time you really made money? How did you handle
it?
AFFLECK: We had sold the Good Will
Hunting script for $600,000, and we split it, 300 grand apiece. After taxes,
$125,000. And then we each bought cars for $50,000—I bought a Jeep Cherokee—so
we were down to $75,000. By the end of the year we were flat broke. So I had
experience running through 600,000 bucks. And then on Armageddon I made another
$600,000.
PLAYBOY: Pearl Harbor.
AFFLECK: Pearl Harbor was a
wonderful experience. I got to know my wife, and there were a lot of people I
liked. It was a disappointment because I thought we were making an iconic movie
that could have been made before the war, a Titanic kind of movie. It ultimately ended up
being like Armageddon in World War II. You can make Armageddon about oil
drillers on an asteroid. You can't make Armageddon about the
Doolittle Raid because that's history and people take that seriously. You
talked about being picky over historical accuracy. Michael Bay, the director,
wanted a more commercial tone, and it was commercial, a big hit. People say Pearl Harbor was a bomb. It
was absolutely not. It did half a billion dollars, but it became a light piece
of entertainment.
PLAYBOY: Changing Lanes.
AFFLECK: Roger Michell
taught me casting. He showed me that if you cast every tiny part as if it were
the lead, you can create a whole world of people you can live in as an actor. I
met Bradley Cooper. I liked working with Sam Jackson a lot. My memory is of
Roger taking what could have easily been a 1970s genre action film and turning
it into a rumination on anger and morality.
PLAYBOY: You forgot your cast mate Sydney
Pollack, also a great director.
AFFLECK: Oh my God. I grilled Sydney about all his
movies, and there were so many. I remember him saying, "Of the seven movies.…"
I said "Wait a minute. You directed seven movies?" He said, "No, I directed
seven movies that star Robert Redford." [laughs] So many amazing stories. His Stanley
Kubrick stories.…
PLAYBOY: Can you tell us one?
AFFLECK: Sydney was acting for him in Eyes Wide Shut, and Stanley wanted him to hold a
glass in a specific place. Sydney told him, "Stanley, I wouldn't do that. It's
not real." And Kubrick said, "Real is good. Interesting is better." He's the
reason people are afraid to cast actors who are directors, because after one or
two takes he'd be muttering, "Come on, I think we got this. Don't we have it?"
PLAYBOY: The Sum of All Fears.
AFFLECK: I met Morgan Freeman, which was
great because I was able to ask him to work for free when we did Gone Baby Gone. We shot The Sum of All Fears in Montreal, and it almost killed
me. That town never closes. The food is amazing, the drink is amazing, the
girls are gorgeous. It's not a place to focus on your work.
PLAYBOY: Gone Baby
Gone.
AFFLECK: I was
terrified. Everybody said, "This is going to suck. Ben Affleck is directing.
This movie's going to be shit." I was very discouraged by it and didn't have a
lot of support from anybody really, except my wife. And Matt.
PLAYBOY: Critics were
impressed with your cast. Your star, Ed Harris, is known for not suffering
fools.
AFFLECK: No, he does
not suffer anything. I've always gotten along with and respect actors. It
becomes clear after a minute or two talking to me as the director on a movie
that I care about them doing their best work and that I give them all the
latitude and time they need and that I understand the story and I'm not going
to ask them to do anything that doesn't make sense. That's a lot for an actor
to hear.
PLAYBOY: The Town.
AFFLECK: I got
confidence from Gone Baby Gone that I could get through a movie, shoot it and
have it make sense. The Town was a step up in trying to execute on the
genre components. The movie borrowed a lot from Michael Mann's Heat. Look how well
they did it in that movie—you can't do it any better. I took that realism and
tried to apply it to our action stuff. There were a lot of techniques we used.
Some worked, and others we didn't put in the movie. Ultimately it was about
making a slightly bigger, slightly more Hollywood movie and wrapping it around
a drama that had themes that were meaningful to me. I thought, If I do this
right, I will be considered for more stuff. And then Jeff Robinov at Warner
Bros. handed me Argo. I read it and immediately knew I had to make it, that it was
perfect.
PLAYBOY: How about
some movies that were considered flops but might have been memorable milestones
for you. Gigli?
AFFLECK: Gigli's where I learned to direct. Martin
Brest, the guy who did Beverly Hills Cop, Midnight Run and Scent of a Woman, is a great director who understands how to help an actor. The love he
had for what he was doing, the care he took with the performances and the way
he made it about the story and the actors rather than imposing some sort of
artifice or style on top of it—all that rubbed off on me when I shot The Town.
PLAYBOY: Daredevil. Can you put
your finger on where it went wrong?
AFFLECK: I think it would be impolite to say so.
PLAYBOY: It doesn't sound like you think it
was your fault.
AFFLECK: I bear a share of responsibility. You
can't divorce yourself and say it was everybody else's fault and not mine. I
was there. But by the same token, actors are often afforded too much credit and
too much blame. These things are risky by nature, and I have worked as hard on
ones that didn't work as I did on Argo. Sometimes it's in the hands of the movie
gods. You think something's smart and that it will resonate, you bust your ass,
and it just doesn't congeal. That's why I judge directors by their successes.
Everybody's capable of missing, but there aren't many who are capable of doing
something special.
PLAYBOY: Considering the career
adversity you've overcome, should we not be surprised that your memories of
failures are more vivid than of hits? Do you dwell on failure?
AFFLECK: No, it's something else.
Look at Daredevil. That's where I found my wife. We met on Pearl Harbor, which people hate, but we fell in love
on Daredevil. By the way, she won most of the fights in the movie, which was a pretty
good predictor of what would happen down the road—my wife, holding swords and
beating the living shit out of me.
The Rotten Tomatoes rating is not in direct proportion to
how important a life experience a movie was. Surviving
Christmas is a one tomato, which means a shitty movie. Again, it
should've been better, could've been better. To me, meeting James Gandolfini
and getting to know him at such an interesting and important period in both our
lives, and the degree to which we bonded and became friends, is something I
wouldn't trade for anything. He was a lovely man, and so tough on himself. Most
of the good things in my life have come out of movies that didn't work very
well. That made that movie a great experience, despite what people said about
it. As you point out, like Pearl Harbor, Daredevil and Surviving Christmas. The hit movies I've done did nothing for me personally.
PLAYBOY: You got into some trouble overdoing
it when you were young and had Hollywood at your feet for the first time.
AFFLECK: I wasn't married. I showed up in Hollywood, and all of a
sudden girls were talking to me. I thought, Wow, what changed? So I had a lot
of girlfriends and a lot of fun. I definitely ran around, and I hit the wall a
few times and made some mistakes. But that's part of a young man growing up. I
think it was the only natural reaction to the situation I found myself in. It's
part of what has allowed me to have more perspective now as an older guy.
PLAYBOY: There is an "I'll show them"
attitude in how you built your career. Does that go back to dropping out of
college after a professor embarrassed you?
AFFLECK: Matt and I were writing Good Will Hunting and living in
Eagle Rock. I was going to school at Occidental. I had a creative writing
professor who asked us to write 20 pages of anything, free-flowing, no-rules
type stuff. I brought in 20 pages of Good Will Hunting. I started to
read it and she said, "Stop, stop, stop. That's not an acceptable literary
form. Screenplay is not literature." Then she allowed the class to weigh in and
make jokes at my expense. I stood there mortified, my face turning red, a
classic moment of humiliation. She said she expected something else from me in
two days. I walked out and never went back.
PLAYBOY: Why?
AFFLECK: I quit school and never went back for one
second more of classes after that. I just said, "Fuck it. This is not helping
me. I'm going to do this on my own with Matt." I don't think I'm the only
person who has used something like that as motivation.
PLAYBOY: What kind of influence was your father? He
did everything from tend bar to write, direct and produce. And he was a bookie.
AFFLECK: Yeah. Not in that order, but yeah.
PLAYBOY: It sounds like his dreams went unfulfilled.
AFFLECK: Yeah. My dad was—is a very gifted
writer and thinker. He worked in a theater company in Boston with Dustin
Hoffman, with Robert Duvall. He knew Jon Voight and James Woods, all of whom
have come up to tell me this subsequently. My dad had ambitions but also a
troubled life. He had a lot of tragedy in his family, a lot of pain, and he
drank to ease some of that pain. Once you start drinking too much, it's hard to
fulfill your ambitions. He became a pretty serious alcoholic. He's sober now.
He's been sober for 20 years, and I think it's incredibly admirable. But when
he was drinking, he fell apart. My mom kicked him out, and then he was kicking
around and living on the street.
PLAYBOY: What does that do to a son who also has
creative aspirations?
AFFLECK: That was a formative period for me. It
caused me to obsess about success and money, because my dad ran out of money
and got kicked out of his house. I obsessed about how important money was. It
got wired into my DNA, and that obsession probably caused me to do some movies
I shouldn't have.
PLAYBOY: How did your dad's struggle inform
your voice as a writer?
AFFLECK: My dad definitely didn't push me into
this. He worried, based on how difficult his own experience was, and he was
caught between that and not wanting to discourage me. He was working in the
theater and then he was a bartender, and that's when he was making book a
little bit. He was making a lot of money betting against the Patriots,
basically. And that's how we got our first VCR and washer-dryer. My dad used
to say, "You can thank [Patriots quarterback] Steve Grogan." He got canned from
that job and ended up a janitor at Harvard. That's where the Harvard janitor
dynamic in Good Will Hunting comes from.
PLAYBOY: That character was your father?
AFFLECK: Yeah. The tension of the friendship
between the Robin Williams character and Stellan Skarsgård's professor
character was sort of me and Matt's imagination of my dad and the guys he was
in the theater with who went on to become successful. Pick any one of these
famous guys. The notion was, Yeah, you've done well, but you're not better than
me. You know?
PLAYBOY: Matt Damon has been your friend
since you were eight. What's the value in a long-term friendship like that?
AFFLECK: I probably can't overstate the
degree to which he's been helpful, even in that it's psychologically good to
have somebody you trust, who's going through it too, who can understand what
you're going through and whose opinion you respect. Matt just moved down the
street from me, so he lives closer to me now than when we were growing up
together in Boston. Our kids hang out together; we have barbecues. I was at his
place two nights ago. Having a friend you've been connected to since you were a
little kid, that's grounding. Matt and my brother Casey are the two people I
rely on the most, emotionally and professionally.
PLAYBOY: Isn't there a competitive nature
between you? Who wins at poker?
AFFLECK: I'm still the better poker player,
probably, though neither of us plays much anymore. Matt was talking about
getting a game going in his house. Yeah, we're competitive, but we learned to
handle it early on. We would take the train from Boston to New York to
audition. We both felt, Look, I want to get the part, but if it's not me, I
want it to be you. It was a healthy way of acknowledging you want what you
want, but you're also rooting for the other guy.
PLAYBOY: Since you don't play cards anymore,
what is your current guilty pleasure?
AFFLECK: A 1966 Chevelle, and
the slight guilt comes from its carbon footprint. [laughs] I try to stay away
from too much guilty stuff. Between working and then being home and spending
time with my kids, I don't have too much time. I still have my motorcycle,
which I don't drive too often. You have to have something, some contact with
that part of yourself that's not just putting shoes on kids.
This article originally appeared in the January/February issue of Playboy. Read more from our complete archives on iPlayboy.com.
Photos by Lorenzo Agius